Last updated August 2019 | Words and photos by Vietnam Coracle
This post was last updated 5 years ago. Please check the comments section for possible updates, or read more on my Updates & Accuracy page.
INTRODUCTION | GUIDE | MAP | RELATED POSTS
The extreme northwest of Vietnam – the big mountainous bulge west of Highway QL12, around the Black River basin – is probably the most remote region of the entire country. Straddling the border of Dien Bien and Lai Chau provinces, it’s certainly one of the least-travelled areas in Vietnam. The extreme northwest abuts both China and Laos, thus this route travels through extensive borderlands, which are often very sensitive. Indeed, this region is perilously close to the infamous Golden Triangle. As such, local police and government officials may hinder your progress. However, old roads have recently been upgraded, and new ones have been blown through the mountains, creating an extremely mountains, off-the-beaten-track, and circuitous route between Lao Cai and Dien Bien Phu. The roads lead further, higher, and deeper into the northwest mountains than ever before, threading between peaks pushing 10,000ft, which are the southeastern-most extent of the same geological collision that formed the Himalayas. It’s also possible to turn this route into a loop.
The Extreme Northwest is probably the most remote, least travelled & mountainous region in Vietnam
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GUIDE: THE EXTREME NORTHWEST
ROAD TRIP DETAILS:
- Total Distance: 800km/400km/310km (one-way)
- Duration: 2-7 days
- Route: three remote & mountainous routes between Lao Cai & Dien Bien Phu [MAP]
- Road Conditions: paved back-roads, new highways, light traffic, regular landslides
- Scenery: mountains, rivers, rice terraces, minority villages, remote borderlands
CONTENTS:
The Extreme Northwest is characterized by forested highlands rising above the Black River basin
*IMPORTANT: Parts of this route travel through sensitive areas: please read the following paragraphs carefully before setting out on this road trip.
The main route in this guide is all about exploring remote roads and regions: it’s by no means the most direct route between Lao Cai and Dien Bien Phu, and sometimes it requires back-tracking. But the rewards are big scenery and virtually no other travellers. The total distance between Lao Cai and Dien Bien Phu via the main route (the blue line on my map) is 800-900km. However, you can also turn this into a loop by returning via road QL6 and Sin Ho (the green line on my map: 400km), or the most direct route via QL12 and QL4D (the red line on my map: 310km). Using any of these routes, the one-way or return journey between Lao Cai and Dien Bien Phu can take anything between 2-7 days, depending on road conditions and weather. Despite its remoteness, the roads are generally in reasonable condition and there’s accommodation (usually in the form of local guest houses, called nhà nghỉ) at all of the towns and villages marked with a red pin on my map. However, as the roads are so mountainous, they are highly susceptible to landslides, especially after heavy rains, which can render them impassable for hours or sometimes days. In my experience, weather is best from March-May and September-October.
You need a lot of time, patience and flexibility for this route, because if the landslides don’t stop you at some point, the local authorities will. The border regions are very sensitive to the Vietnamese government and army. In particular, if you ride the roads between Muong Te, Muong Nhe and A Pa Chai (marked with a black line on my map), you should ask permission at the local government/police offices first; or head out and hope for the best, but you do so at your own risk. If stopped you will most likely not suffer anything worse than a fine, but there’s always the possibility of something more serious, such as your bike being impounded or even visa issues. In general, I found the authorities on this route to be polite and accommodating. But remember, you are a guest in another country.
The Extreme Northwest is more accessible than ever thanks to new roads, but remains a sensitive region
About this Map & Guide:
Below is a detailed, annotated route map followed by a short image gallery illustrating the kind of landscape and scenes you can expect to find on this road trip. On the map, I’ve outlined 3 main routes between Lao Cai and Dien Bien Phu. The blue route is the real Extreme Northwest: this is the longest, most remote, least travelled, and highest of all the routes. The green route is slightly shorter, with equally spectacular landscape and unpredictable road conditions. The red route is the easiest, most direct, and most travelled (but still highly scenic and remote). In general, the idea is to take one route out and another route back, thus creating a full Extreme Northwest Loop. On my map, I’ve started the route at the train station in Lao Cai, because this is where many travellers begin their road trips in northern Vietnam, having shipped their bikes as freight on the overnight train from Hanoi. However, another convenient starting point is Sapa, since it’s such a popular destination and there are many places to rent motorbikes. (Note that the route from Lao Cai to Sapa is covered in my Y Ty Loop Guide and the route from Sapa to Sin Ho is covered in my Sin Ho Loop Guide.)
As mentioned before, bear in mind that this is an extremely rugged, remote, sparsely populated, and politically sensitive part of the country, so take your time and take it easy. Roads can be dangerous, not because of traffic, but because of landslides, potholes, and inclement weather. Much of the Black River valley has been flooded for hydroelectricity projects, and this has shifted road routes away from their original course along the river banks: in some cases, Google has yet to update its maps, so there are some discrepancies between the roads as they appear on the map and their actual route. However, the general route is still the same, just several kilometres further away from the river banks, and it shouldn’t be too difficult to navigate. There’s at least one local guest house (nhà nghỉ in Vietnamese) or hotel in each of the places marked with a red pin on my map. Gas stations aren’t frequent, but can been found in most of the villages and towns on this route.
*WARNING: Police and army personnel patrol much of the border territory on this route. When it comes to the authorities, the biggest challenge is the road near the Chinese border, which links Muong Te with Muong Nhe, with a side route to A Pa Chai, the point where Vietnam, Laos, and China meet. In fact, parts of this road are so sensitive that it doesn’t appear on most maps (I’ve tried my best to draw it on my map in black). If you choose to take this road, it’s highly advisable to seek permission in Muong Te or Muong Nhe before attempting to do so.
ROUTE MAP:
The Extreme Northwest: Lai Cao→Sapa→Dien Bien Phu | 3 Routes
Blue line: 800-900km | Green line: 400km | Red line: 310km
IMAGE GALLERY:
The following images are all taken along the Extreme Northwest Loop between Lao Cai and Dien Bien Phu, via the three routes outlined on my map. Read the captions below each image to find out exactly where they were taken.
A rainbow in the mountains between Sin Ho & Muong Lai on Road QL12, Lai Chau Province
The flooded valley of the Black River, near Muong Lai at the junction of Road QL12
Road QL4H meandering through the mountains between Cha Cang & Muong Nhe, Dien Bien Province
Road QL12 echoing the course of the Nam Na River, seen from the road to Muong Te
Vietnamese visitors relax next to a tank on top of A1 Hill, site of the battle for Dien Bien Phu, spring 1954
The spectacular Road DT128 winds up the mountains between Lai Chau & Sin Ho
My parents passing through a landslide on the Black River road between Muong Te & Muong Lay
The wide, muddy Black River, swelled by the construction of hydroelectric dams near Muong Lay
The empty & remote road between Phong Tho & Muong Te, passing through endless mountain scenery
Extreme switchbacks on the road to Muong Te, making progress slow but the views are stunning
Terraced rice fields on the mountainsides descending Road DT128 from Sin Ho to Muong Lay
The new road cut into the hillside along the Black River valley, between Muong Te & Muong Lay
A passing shower in the mountains & forests of remote Dien Bien Province
The famous O Quy Ho Pass curling around the mountains from Sapa to Lai Chau
Sitting atop a mountain & taking in the views across the landscapes of Dien Bien & Lai Chau provinces
A remote hamlet on the hillside between Sin Ho & Moung Lay, Lai Chau Province
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Thanks for your blog, Tom. I wouldn t have dared to take that route on my own were not for it.
I rented a mbike in Dien Bien and rode to Sin ho taking route 128 via Tan gao and Ho ho. From there to Muong te passing Lai chau. From there to Muong nhe via Pac ma and Pin Kho. I did no take the detour to the right to A pa chai border.
From muong nhe kept straight on to on to Mung cha and QL12 back to Dien bien phu.
I spend nights at Sin Ho and Muong the. Three days on the motorbike. Six to ten hours on the road. Too much. One more day would have been more like it.
Most of the time the road is good. Some stretches with works where one have to slow down, and intermitent passing where the machinery are working on landslides. Waiting time one hour in the worst case.
The route to Sin ho from south is STILL UNDER WORKS. Doable with care and taking plenty time (about 3 hours). Not advisable if one s not confident on mbike, lots of dust, mud, and very rough surfaces.
Zero permits needed and zero dealing with police
Impressive views and experience. There are petrol stations everywhre. I carried a reserve bottle of gasoline for extra peace of mind. There are places to sleep in every village but standards may be very low in the smallest hamlets. One should try to make it to somewhere “big” (i.e Sin ho, Muong the, Muong nhe…) for the night. Almost no one speaks english in the area. Gooogle translator is of much help.
Again, thanks Tom. If You want me to further elaborate on any matter just drop a line.
(I did not came across one single foreign tourist/traveler in the whole loop)
Muang Ngoi, november 12, 2024
Hi Victor,
Thank you for this useful trip report and road updates – it’s a great help to me and to other rider. It’s great that you were able to ride the entire route without any problems. I’m very happy you enjoyed it.
Best,
Tom
Cheers Tom, this blog is an invaluable resource and should be considered as the shining example for anyone trying to start a travel/destination blog.
I just returned to Hanoi after nine days exploring the Northwest on a Honda XR150. It’s unbelievable how many perfect, scenic, fun, and quiet roads the Northwest area has.
My itinerary was a bit all over the place but roughly speaking: Hanoi – Mai Chau – Dien Bien (food poisoning, oops.) – Sin Ho – Sapa (Ta Van) – Muong Te – Cha Cang (past Muong Nhe) – Son La – Hanoi
So the food poisoning and bad weather threw a bit of a wrench into the plan I never really had but all in all it was 1.800km of excellent, world-class roads in the past few days. My shoulder can testify to that.
On to the more useful stuff:
I had absolutely 0 (zero, cero, null) police / border patrol interactions on the entire trip. That includes driving the black route from Muong Te to Muong Nhe.
The road conditions are pretty ideal except for the southern approach into Sin Ho, as previously mentioned.
This area is incredible, however, be aware that poverty rates are 80-90% up here – I haven’t seen that mentioned anywhere. That means you’ll be lucky to find a single restaurant “open” past 7. Even then you may just get whatever is left over. English is pretty much 0; that sadly includes the kids on the side of the road that don’t even shout “hello” at you (ymmv, I couldn’t find good resources on how education is in this area). Just something I noticed that laid a bit heavy on my mind.
Adjust your expectations and it’ll be an unforgettable experience. Or in short: this isn’t ha giang.
Accommodation was solid all around – I stuck with hotels mentioned previously and didn’t pay more than 300k.
So all in all definitely go explore this area. It seems restrictions are loosening slowly but surely. Fwiw, a hostel owner in Dien Bien told me they’re working on a process to take foreigners to A Pa Chai (Frontier hostel! 10/10!)
Hi Richard,
Thank you for these important and useful updates on the route. It’s good to hear you rode it without any hindrances. Did you stay overnight anywhere on the black route? I think that is usually when people have problems.
Best,
Tom
Hello Tom,
Thank you for your wonderful guides! We’ve been using them for the past few days to explore the north.
We set out from Sa Pa, and then moved on to Sin Ho, and are currently in Dien Bien Phu. The scenery is all incredible and we’ve been very welcomed by a lovely homestay in Sin Ho called Villa de la Roseraie, and managed to get the last room in the Muong Thanh Grand hotel for last night – lots of festivities happening in the city right now.
At the time of travel, there are heavy roadworks and the road is in very bad shape if you leave Sa Pa through the villages (Cat Cat and Sin Chai), despite the harrowing start to the day, it was worth it, as those views were some of the most incredible — took us over 2 hours to do 9 km.
From west of Sa Pa to Sin Ho, the roads are great – no road works or landslides. However, leaving Sin Ho to continue south on the DT128, the next 30 km or so are under complete road works. It had rained heavily the night before, so we got quite muddy, but once we were free from that, it was smooth sailing, and incredible roads!
We’re off to do a portion of the Trans-Northern Belt this morning, with a stop planned just East of Than Uyen.
We’ve loved the market in Sin Ho, as we caught it the Sunday morning, and have enjoyed all of the animals along the side of the road!
Happy travels everyone!
Emily and David
Hi Emily & David,
Thank you for the useful updates. And I am very to happy to hear that you are enjoying your road trip in the big landscapes of the northwest. I hope you enjoy the next section too.
Best,
Tom
Hi Tom!
I’ve been reading and using your motorcycle guides for some time now and I decided to share my experiences on the extreme Northwest motorbike guide, specifically the black road on your map.
I rented a motorcycle in Dien Bien Phu on 16/12/2023 and decided to embark on your extreme Northwest motorcycle loop the next day. My plan was to drive the loop clockwise starting in DBP and ending there as well. Regarding your black line on the map, this would mean that I would drive to Muong Nhe on the first day, spend the night there, and then drive through Pac Ma and Muong Te onwards to Sin Ho the 2nd day.
As I started in DBP, I decided to inform about the permit with a local tour guide in DBP and with the government. The tour guide asked around for me and later told me that for travelling and spending a night in either Muong Nhe, Pac Ma and Muong Te there is no permit needed. Only if I wanted to go off the QL4H, I needed to have a permit (for Thu Lim, Ka Lang and A Pa Chai).
I wasn’t planning on going off the QL4H, so I felt okay driving without the permit, but I had some time left in DBP so curious as I was, I decided to see what the permit procedure looks like. I went to the Provincial Police station first, where the officer told me I had to go to the Immigration Office to apply for the permit. The Immigration Office can be found right across the airport, next to the gas station (Phòng Quản Lý Xuất Nhập Cảnh). The lady working there told me that if I wanted to get a permit, I needed to have a sponsor living in the border area (like a friend or family). I didn’t have a sponsor, but since I wouldn’t be driving off the QL4H anyway I didn’t mind not getting the permit.
Off I went the next day, towards Muong Nhe. About 40km before Muong Nhe, I got stopped by a police officer who asked for my document with the help of Google Translate. Not knowing what document he meant exactly, I handed him my International Driving Permit. He took a photo of my IDP and he said everything was okay and that I could continue my trip. This was the only police officer I came across that day. Also no border patrol seen.
In Muong Nhe I stayed at Nhà Nghỉ Bình Minh, a nice and clean guesthouse off the main road (Google Maps shows the wrong location though, you have to drive about 200m further on the main road and then to the right). Run by a sweet family, 250k for a private room. The hotel owners did not ask for a permit and even asked me if I wanted to drive to A Pa Chai so me being there and driving around all seemed fine.
The next day I drove to Pac Ma, onwards to Muong Te and finally to Sin Ho where I spent the night (what a gem!) The whole day, I did not see police or border patrol. The road from Muong Nhe to Pac Ma was overall in good condition, only a few patches of 1-2km each with some road work but passable in 2nd gear. Some other parts of the road showed some potholes but nothing that really slowed me down (I drove a manual 135cc scooter). Pac Ma to Muong Te road in perfect condition, a pleasure to drive on.
In short: In my case when I drove the ‘black route’ in December 2023: no permit needed if you stay on the QL4H and roads overall in good condition, only some patches with road work.
Hi Martin,
Thank you for sharing your experience on this route and for all the helpful updates. It’s really great to hear that you were able to overnight and ride the entire black route without hindrance. I hope this will be the case from now on – it would be great for riders to be able to enjoy that corner of the country and spread a bit of the tourist buck in the northwest to that isolated region.
Thanks again.
Best,
Tom
Thanks for the details Martin! Very helpful info! Me and some friends are planning a similar route in March, but we will go counter clockwise.
A question if you don’t mind: The black route doesn’t show a road on Google Maps between Pac Ma and Phi Chi, nor can I see any resemblance of a dirt road on Google Maps satellite view. Does the correct route go right out of Pac Ma going south and follow the river/black line? The reason I ask is because Google Maps shows another real road that runs through some small villages just to the east of the black line/river road (through Si Ne, Ban E Ma). I wanted to make sure we take the correct route heading south out of Pac Ma. Thanks!
Hi Matt,
Parts of that road (the black route) don’t show up on Google Maps because that region is considered ‘sensitive’. When you get to Pac Ma, you’ll either be able to see which road to take or you’ll need to ask a local for the way to Muong Nhe.
Best,
Tom
Hi,
I have a more general question but i add it here because it concerns the sensitive border areas which is mentioned here.
I found a list of the communes/districts that require a permit to go there. The list is actually quite extensive and also contains places such as Y Ty, Dong Van, Si Ma Cai, and even places in the Mekong delta, besides the places mentioned in this article. In fact a large part of QL12 even is theoretically passing through sensitive area. However, since most of the information is in Vietnamese it’s quite confusing on what are the rules. Anyone has more information on this?
More specifically:
– Is a permit needed only for spending the night or also for just passing? In the latter case it’s difficult to ride any of the northern loops probably
– Where to request permits? Normally i read in the province/district capitals but if riding from Sa Pa to Ha Giang for instance you’ll be passing sensitive areas on the way to Ha Giang.
– Anyone any idea on duration of a permit if received? I’m a cyclist myself so probably it will take me considerably longer than someone with a motorbike to pass from one main town to the next 🙂
Thanks!
Hi Maikel,
In general, it’s just border regions. Mostly the permit is required for staying over night, but sometimes, depending on how ‘sensitive’ a location is considered, it may also be required for passing through.
Permits are usually issued at the provincial capital people’s committee. It can take between 1-3 days, but in some cases, you simply can’t get a permit as a foreign visitor.
However, almost all the routes on my website do not require special permits to visit, so you are unlikely to have problems. Just avoid border areas and check comments for routes that go near borders.
If you are stopped by police, be polite, smile and do you best to explain the situation: in the majority of cases, police are kind and understanding.
Best,
Tom
7/6 Left Moung Te and headed to Muong Lay.
Interesting back story about this town as I found the place a bit odd. Basically nothing noteworthy at Moung Lay but the roads are wide but it seems sparsely populated.
From what I gathered this is the new Moung Lay as the original town is submerged after the dam was built to prevent flash floods.
Stayed a night at the Truc An Guesthouse for 200k.
It is on a hill and if you don’t have transport it is about 1km away from the town centre at the bridge. The hotel is kinda creepy as there were only a car and 2 bikes parked. Lol
Food wise nothing to shout out too.
In my opinion skip this town if you can.
Hi Brendon,
Yes, the town was flooded a decade ago and rebuilt higher up the valley.
Best,
Tom
This morning 6/6/23 left Sin Ho for Muong Te taking the DT128/QL12/Muong Te Pa Tan Road/DT127.
It was raining heavily from Sin Ho. The raod conditions on this route is good.
Staying at Khach San Hoang Lam for 250k and the room is superb. Their restaurant is just next door and they prepared stir fried beed noodles for me.
Tomorrow I head to Muong Lay and the weather forecast is heavy rain. Sigh….
I am NOT going to A Pa Chai since it is a sensitive area close to the Chinese border.
So far the closest I got to the Chinese border is at Lao Cai where I could see the Chinese city a few hundred metres away.
Hi Brendon,
Make sure you read the previous comments on this page: some people have also had difficulties staying the night in Muong Te, not just A Pa Chai and the rest of the black line route.
Best,
Tom
I was good at Muong Te. As I was checking out from the hotel and setting up the bags on the bike, there was a guy in dark green military uniform at the hotel. He seemed to be an officer and his uniform was pressed smart. He actually came over to talk to me and asked where I was from and whether the XR150 was running good. We communicated via Google Translate. I think he was picking up someone from the hotel. He shook my hand and as I left and waved me good bye.
Good to hear that.
Tom
Trip Report for 04/20-04/23:
I did a bit of a different route but included a lot of the stuff on here. Started in Thanh Hoa early morning on the 20th and got south of this route in a place called Pung Luong. Stayed at a really lovely homesty with Hmong people. The next day I continued up north on QL32 and joined the blue line through Lai Chau. Continued on the Blue Line on QL4 and joined the short red bit that continues into Phong Tho. From there I went all the way south on QL12 to Dien Bien Phu.
I don’t know if it’s this time of year or smoke from Laos, but the road was hot and smoky pretty much all the way from Lai Chau to Dien Bien Phu. Bring plenty of water, and maybe even a mask as certain parts of the road were hot and smoky, making it a tough day of riding. However, the views are incredible, QL12 pretty much follows a river mountain valley all the way from the northern border with China down to Dien Bien Phu.
The next day I took a bit of the green route on QL279 from Dien Bien Phu all the way to Mai Chau in Hoa Binh province, far off this route. Today I got back to Thanh Hoa, totalling a little over 1200 km. Wish I had more time to do all the bits on this route but it was a great taste of the northwest.
Thank you VC!
Hi Ryan,
Thank you for sharing your trip report around this route and beyond. It’s great to hear you enjoyed it. But, yes, much more time would be even better 🙂 I hope you get another chance sometime soon.
Best,
Tom
Hey, Tom. Currently towards the end of stitching together my own loop from all the routes you’ve posted (thank you, by the way!) & there is now permits required on different parts of the blue line sections, it seems. I was going to go to Ban Moi from Dien Bien Phu but was told by the hostel owner there that I needed a permit to even get close to there. He was with an American guiding a group tour a few villages before Ban Moi and they were forced to leave during the evening because of not having a permit to stay.
As of this moment I am Y TY & was just stopped by a border guard & questioned. Through an English speaking intermediary I was told I needed a permit from Lao Cai to be here but they’ll make an exception as long as I don’t go any farther north to china, stick inside the village area, and leave right away in the morning. They wouldn’t even let me choose my own accommodation. So, overall it appears that the ‘sensitive’ border areas requiring permits for foreigners seems to have broadened in recent times. The west has been amazing despite these restrictions though
Hi Rylee,
Thanks so much for these important and useful updates. I appreciate it and I’m sure they’ll also be useful to other readers and riders.
Yes, it does seem as though, post-pandemic, border regions are even more sensitive than previously.
Best,
Tom
Best,
Tom
Here’s my trip report: I came up here seeing your route as good to go and I checked into my hotel in Muong Nhe and then went for a little drive. Upon coming back I was told by the owner that the police had been by to check permits.
A bit later I went to the restaurant close by where I met some really good friends. They invited me to kareoke that night and then to join them in Pac Ma the following day.
Upon leaving the restaurant I was stopped by a police/border/who knows what agency and brought me back to my hotel close by. He told me I was in violation to be in Muong Nhe altogether and I couldn’t leave the hotel until the morning in which I had to leave the district entirely.
I didn’t even get to say goodbye the the great Vietnamese friends I met and I kept asking why, being a curious person, and all he kept saying is if you want to be here you need a permit from Dien Bien Phu.
Hi Geordi,
Thanks for sharing your experience on this route. Sorry to hear you had trouble riding here: it is common in this region to be stopped, questioned and even turned back by authorities. I suppose everyone has a different experience riding here. I think the best any rider can do at the moment in the Extreme Northwest is to come expecting and prepared for such circumstances, and be ready to turn back if told to. I know it’s frustrating, but they are only doing their job and it’s best to try to handle those encounters with patience and acceptance. The only other thing to do is to try to obtain the permit in Dien Bien Phu.
Best,
Tom
We are just coming back from Phong Thổ (->over Mount Te) -> Pac Ma (->over Mount Nhé) -> Cha Cang (so the black line on the map)
We asked at the police station in Muong Te how to obtain a permit for the tour. First they told us “report to hotel in Pac Ma”, then they told us we can also get it directly from the police station in Pac Ma.
We stayed at Nhà Hàng Hương Hộ (250k/night), directly opposite of the police station. The owner took our passports to register(?) us at the police station. We got them back in the morning. I don’t know if he did anything with our passports or just pretended to do so.
We Could drive to Muong Te without seeing any authorities the whole day.
So everyone seemed quite chilled.
Hi Till,
Thanks for your trip report.
To be clear: you rode to Muong Te to Muong Nhe on the black route without any problems or paperwork, is that correct?
Best,
Tom
Yes, correct. No sign of any controls there 🙂
And only letting the hotel manager in Pac Ma doing something with our passports.
That’s great news! Thanks.
Tom
Hi Tom, just discovered your journal. nice. We are riding (bicycle) some of S Vietnam / Mekong Delta in November but the north has a lot of attractions; when would be the best time for a bicycle tour in the far north avoiding the worst extremes of weather (heat, cold & rain) or can we only avoid two of the three? Regards Richard
Hi Richard,
Take a look at my Weather Guide for more information about this. Also see the first few paragraphs of any of my Northern Routes (including the one on this page above) where I mention the general best time of year to ride/visit.
Best,
Tom
Hello Tom,
Just an update, I arrived in Muong Nhe today in preparation to travel the black route and also visit the border post 0. The police and border officials now require foreigners to get approval to travel here from the main government building in Dien Bien Phu. Bummer when I found out. I will seek that approval on my next trip up here. Great job on the site. I have been using your maps while traveling Vietnam. Thanks for the excellent information.
Hi Shawn,
Thanks for the update. That’s a shame. Sorry you didn’t get to continue further on the loop. It’s always possible on this route that you’ll be stopped and asked to turn back by officials. It’s still considered a sensitive region and even more so now with Covid and borders etc.
Thanks again,
Tom
Yes. You need to get a permit in DBP. I went to A Pa Chai back in 2017.
They wouldn’t issue me with a permit unless I was with a ‘proper’ tour guide. Initially, they seemed to say ‘with a Vietnamese person’, but then backed away from that and said that it had to be someone from a Công ty Du Lịch who could put an official red stamp on the application. My initial plan had been to find a xe ôm to take me, but I had to take a guide + car. Not sure whether riding alongside or pillion with an official guide would be acceptable – they were very reticent about the whole thing.
Pretty sure the China Border fence runs along the Laos/China border now spoiling the effect. Not sure if it runs along the Vietnam/China border at that point.
Hi William,
Yes, that was certainly the case, however, the most recent comment on this page (by Till) suggests things may have changed since then: their trip report says they managed to ride the entire border loop without a permit.
Best,
Tom
Love your site! Please keep up the good work. Coupla questions on this Northwest loop: 1) can you send your big motorbike (mine is a 1200cc) via train from HCM to Lao Cai? From Hanoi, yes, but I’d rather fly to Lao Cai, pick it up from there & ride down to Hanoi, 2) speaking of big bike, are the back roads OK for it? Mine is a BMW sports touring, not the GS adventure, so I am a little hesitant taking it on this trip. Thank you so much
Thanks, Quan.
It’s highly unlikely that you’d be able to transport your bike direct from Ho Chi Minh City to Lao Cai – rather, you’d probably be able to send it to Hanoi and then again separately from Hanoi to Lao Cai. I think the size of your bike can still be accommodated on the trains, although obviously you’d pay a higher price for it. For more about sending your bike between HCMC and Hanoi read this and for more about sending the bike from Hanoi to Lao Cai read this.
You can’t fly to Lao Cai – there isn’t an airport yet.
It’s difficult to say if your bike is appropriate for the roads on this route. When the roads are paved of course it’ll be fine, but there are often landslides in the northwest which regularly damage the roads and make them muddy.
Also, remember that this is still a sensitive region to travel in. Take a look at the comments at the end of this post for other riders’ reports.
I hope this helps,
Tom
Hi Quan,
I rode around the northern and northeastern loops in 2019 on a scooter. However I met a group of guys with big adventure bikes from Thailand and they told me they had had a lot of problems with the bikes sinking into the soft material and loose stones used as road base on stretches with roadworks. Not an insurmountable problem but something to consider.
Thanks for the guide Tom as always!
I did this loop a week or so ago.
1) Colder than I expected once out of Hanoi (live in saigon)
2) No tourist’s which is to be expected
3) Nha Nghi in Muong Nhe quoted me 200k.. checkout said 500k. I just waited and paid 200k
4) Police visited me while there, asked what I was doing. I showed them map and black line. They said no to APC which I expected, but rest of black line was no issues. Very friendly.
Roads are amazing!
Hi Adam,
Thanks for your trip report and updates. That’s particularly interesting that the police explicitly said that the black route was fine as long as you didn’t venture to A Pa Chai. Very encouraging news for riders.
Thanks again,
Tom
Yes, I was pleasantly surprised. I will add the young police guy that came to my door spoke perfect English.
He just wanted a photo of my TRC as well and I explain to him that I knew the area was sensitive and he was fine.
I generally find if your upfront and honest, they are generally no problems. But do note that I didn’t try and stay the night along the black line on your map. I didn’t want to push my luck
Yes, I agree, definitely best not to try stay overnight anywhere along the black route.
Thanks again for sharing your experience on this route,
Tom
I’m planning to head from Phuong Tho to Muong Ta via Muong via Pac Ma tomorrow Mon (16/11/20). Any updates on security or roads? I’m driving a CB1100 so prefer at least slightly sealed roads. Weather has been glorious these last few days so no rain to worry about.
My backup plan if stopped is to head back to Muong Te.
Should have checked that. I’m heading to Muong Nhe via Pac Ma. Fall back to Muong Ta if stopped.
Hi David,
If the weather has been pretty good then most of the roads should be sealed and open – the problems usually come from landslides after the rain. However, you are highly likely to be stopped by officials/police after heading out of Muong Te toward Pac Ma and over to Muong Nhe (the black line on my map). And if you plan to stay the night anywhere between those points you will almost certainly be asked to leave. Security is tight up in that region; now more than ever because of the pandemic.
Any reports and updates from your trip would be much appreciated.
I hope it goes well,
Tom
Well, the first update is the owner of the Lan Anh guesthouse back in Phong Tho assured me I can go anywhere, including anywhere on the black lines I showed her:)
I will of course test this. I’m in Muong Te right now, opposite the the Bin An hotel , in a particularly nice Saigon Bia Hoi place by the river. Since the barman served me a pitcher I’ve decided to stay here the night.
Tomorrow I will explore all your black lines and report back. By the way, the loop above Muong Te is one of the best motorbike roads I’ve ever been on. All the roads between there and Sapa are magnificent. 20km beyond Phuong Tho heading West the roads become more of a gravaltastic slide show. They seem to widen / improve probably 50km of road simultaneously.
Thanks for all your info by the way, easily the best resource for English speaking bike riders in Vietnam.
DE
Thanks, David.
Sounds like fun!
I hope you get through all the way on the black route OK, but generally locals say it’s OK because the road is sealed, but usually foreign riders will be stopped and politely asked to turn back.
Good luck,
Tom
Ride report, Muong Te to Muong Nhe via Pac Ma and A Pa Chai, 17/11/20.
Weather: a little light intermittent rain for first half of journey.
Roads: a little rough for first 10km only, then you join a wide river and have an excellent road for most of the way to Pac Ma.
The roads become rough again after Pac Ma for the first half (40km), just a little slower going that’s all. The common theme (since Muong Ta) is that Google maps needs updating. You will need extra time to negotiate this. Roads for 2nd half of journey very good.
Security: nothing until about 20km into the black road towards A Pa Chai. Then 2 very pleasant security guards pop out of their small building and greet you. The upshot is “turn around”. They get an English speaker on the phone to tell you this rather eloquently in English: need to go back to Dien Bien Phu is the (not really true) mantra.
Head to Muong Nhe, where shortly after checking in hotel I was visited by the police who will come tomorrow and perhaps escort me out of the so called frontier area.
Tip: if my story is the common one, then anti clockwise is the best way to go, because Muong Te didn’t have any police knocking on your door. Whereas Muong Nha did.
DE
Hi David,
Thanks very much for your trip report – it’s very helpful to me and other riders. I’m glad to hear you got so far, and I hope things went smoothly for you this morning.
Thanks again,
Tom
Hi Tom and fellow travellers,
80 km south of Muong Nhe, at the crossing at Cha Cang, where you can choose going south direction Dien Bien Phu or north to Muong Lay there is a brand new, decent guesthouse Nha Nghi Huyen Bien. On the main road, 100 meters before the crossing. VND 200.000.
Hi Bob,
That’s good news for travellers in that remote region. Thank you very much for the update.
Best,
Tom
Were you able to get to Border Post 0 down the A Pa Chai road? I drove out there a couple years ago, 173km one way, only to be told (approx 2km from the marker) that I needed to go back and get a permit in ĐBP.. That didn’t happen..
Hi,
Yes, I had the same experience. Technically you should be able to get a permit from Dien Bien Phu, but people I trust have told me it’s currently very unlikely you’ll get it. At the moment, riders should be fine up until Muong Nhe.
Tom
We’re in Tuan Giao at the moment, was planning to go up QL6 to Muong Lay but getting conflicting reports, good to terrible. Now in 2 minds , back track to DBP and go up QL12 or continue as planned. Your thoughts please
Hi Gary,
I don’t have a recent road report for QL6. But it is common for it to have rough patches. If it’s been raining recently then it’s likely to be worse. However, if you have riding experience and a bike that can handle the rough sections of road, you might be fine. If you don’t, then it could be a problem, in which case you you can take QL12 instead – there’s also a rough section of road on that route, about halfway to Muong Lay, but it shouldn’t be a problem.
Good luck and please report back about road conditions.
Tom
Hi
Thanks so much Tom for this site, it’s really a treasure when you are first time traveling on a motorbike in Vietnam.
What a work you did here!
Actually that’s why I write this comment now. I never do usually.
I wanted to try to go from Muong Te to Muong Nhe by the black route.
From the beginning (outside of Muong Te) a viet guy on a motorbike waited for me and then clearly followed me.
After what I read here on this sensitive area I was a little bit paranoiac.
I let him go. Then I saw him waiting for me at a bridge on the black river. I stop to understand his behavior.
He told me that he is going to Muong Nhe and that this road is a short cut.
So I thought I could follow him and avoid the problems that you described taking the black route.
I checked on google map and realized that this « short cut » route exists.
Wonderful road until you arrive 25km far from Muong Nhe.
The road then stops completely.
But the guy told me to keep on.
I tried and found out a narrow pedestrian trail on these high mountains with a deadly steep side.
This trail was really really dangerous and I almost felt at a place that I would die.
Later I felt twice because I was exhausted, fortunately on less steep parts of the trail.
I write this comment to warn readers that the toae that google map gives from Muong Te to Muong Nhe is only paved on the first 80km but then is just a deadly trail.
Don’t try to take it.
Then in Muong Nhe, same story as you described it, police came at 10 pm in my room. Very nice people.
They even came back at 8 am in the morning to be sure that I will take the Dien Bien phu direction.
They even offered me a coffee.
This happened end of February 2019.
Hi Alexandre,
Thanks for sharing your experience of the route. That’s very interesting about the road, and valuable information about the last 20km being very dangerous.
Thanks again,
Tom
Thank you Tom for the great guide. We did Lao Cai-Sin Ho-Muong Te-Lai Chau city-Y Ty-Lao Cai just before Tet. I think in the whole 6 days, we saw twice a foreign couple and a lone guy on our entire way. It’s great to travel when it’s not packed with tourists/travellers!
We also stayed at the guest house by Sin Ho market. The old lady offered us the room at 250k vnd, explaining that because I’m Vietnamese and she’d charge foreigners 300k. That put me off a little, but otherwise lovely couple. In Muong Te, we stayed at Ngoc Thanh hotel. Others should avoid this one as the room smelled from mold in every corner. (As you already know, mold seems common in almost all low and medium range accommodation). In Y Ty, we were the only guests at Thao Nguyen Xanh homestay!
A slight difference from your route. Between Sin Ho and Muong Te, we by chance took a small side road (in Le Loi commune, Muong Lay district), which led us to beautiful small, clean road (where we can still look down to the Black River at times) and very organized Thai hamlets. (When we hit the national road after leaving Sin Ho, we took the right road that is in parallel to the national road instead). I’ve been to many ethnic minority villages in the north and was very surprised to find such nice and clean villages!
We were super lucky with the weather, sunny and mild most of the time. We could see the Fansipan peak clearly, as you mentioned. But after scooting through Ha Giang a couple of time, I must say I was still super impressed with Lai Chau. I’d recommend everyone to make their way to this less-travelled province for once!
* correction: we couldn’t see the Fansipan peak clearly.
Hi Giang,
Thanks for sharing your experience on that route – sounds like you had a great road trip.
The side route to the Thai villages sounds particularly interesting.
Tom
Hi!
Really a great and very inspiring guide! Me and my wife are looking forward to do our trip to Vietnam this September. I read that this would be a good time for the loop, as well. Regarding weather conditions for example.
Unfortunately we have no motorbike license. We do have car license and this (in germany) allows us to drive a scooter with 50ccm engine.
Now I’d like to ask you for your opinion:
Do you think it is possible to do a 3 day tour on 50ccm scooters? One for me and one for my wife.
I already have motorbike experience but my wife doesn’t.
I’m a bit worried because of the power these little scooters deliver. Is it perhaps to steep so the scooters are to weak?
And if course I’m worried if the tour is hard to drive without motorbike experience. I don’t want to put her in danger.
I have read that there are now controlling police men and they stop you right at the beginning of then tour.
So, only possibility (if going on two 50ccm scooters is not recommended or it is to dangerous) would be, that I make my motorbike driving license and than I could legally rent a XR150.
I haven’t read anything about doing the loop by car. This is not an option, is it?
I hope you can give us some advice.
Hi Christopher,
I think the route you are thinking about is probably the Ha Giang Extreme North Loop (not the Extreme Northwest Loop on this page).
If that is correct, then yes you are right that the traffic police are now quite strict about licenses on that route. Unless you have a valid international license for motorbikes or a local one, then you will almost certainly be stopped by the police.
Personally, I don’t think it’s a good idea to ride the Ha Giang Loop on a 50cc bike – the roads are too steep and mountainous. Therefore, I recommend you get the motorbike license from Germany and rent at XR150 for the ride – this would be perfect.
For bike rental in Ha Giang I recommend QT Motorbikes – they can probably also give you some more information about licenses, too.
I hope this helps,
Tom
Yes you were right. The loop was what I mentioned.
Thank you so much for your advice.
Is there another tour of 2 or 3 days that is possible to do on 50ccm. One for each person of course.
Many many thanks! Great site and so many information.
Greetings from Germany.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Well, not really – very few people ride 50cc bikes here, because they’re just not powerful enough. You could potentially ride them along some of the flatter coastal routes, but not in the mountains.
Tom
It’s a difficult one to comment on this post, but I will start with 2 clear points, reiterating issues brought up in Tom’s article…
1) Muong Te is a sensitive border region; to be honest it is not yet ready to be opened up to adventure-seeking (foreign) tourism. Until recently the roads were so bad or non-existent that few were hardy enough to try their luck bur recent infrastructural improvements are rapidly changing that. I met and discussed at length with the authorities in each of Muong Te, A Pa Chai and Muong Nhe (when they pulled me out of bed at 11pm); they made it clear that the black route on Tom’s map is not open to foreign visitors unless official permits have been issued in advance. The officials were cordial and friendly but the message was clear. Official permits cannot be issued in the places listed above, they must be applied for either in Hanoi (at Hanoi City Police) or at Công an Tỉnh (provincial police HQ) in the provincial capital of Dien Bien Phu. Without this paperwork the authorities will turn you back. Local Vietnamese meanwhile are allowed to register at the “Don Bien Phong” border authorities near to A Pa Chai.
2) Forget about Google Maps pretty much entirely in this region, most of the information is missing and what is listed is often completely wrong/misleading. Some roads have been flooded with the construction of dams, others have been abandoned and new roads are often completely absent. Google secures its maps from the Vietnamese authorities and this data appears to have been witheld; however with the volume of traffic moving around in the area it’s also quite surprising that Google’s data has not updated accordingly. Turn off Google Maps, follow signs and rely on local knowledge.
3) This is an extremely poor area and sparsely populated. There is little in the way of services so make sure you have spare parts and tools with you if you’re travelling by motorbike. Tom’s map has marked the towns with accommodation which as you head further west are namely (in an anti-clockwise fashion) Muong Te, Pac Ma and Muong Khe, although to be honest I’m not sure how the authorities would feel about foreign guests registering to stay in Pac Ma.
Ha Giang region used to have very strict controls on access to the region by foreign guests and this has slowly eased over time. The situation will change in Muong Te too but not for a while. Having said that some of you will have made the decision to go into this region already and whatever you read will not change your mind so I will at least update you with the information I can share.
The 2 northern roads out to Muong Te (from Pa Tan and from Muong Lay) are in decent enough condition. Sealed for the large part, and about 110km each (allow around 3 hours by motorbike), both are stunning drives. In Muong Te I recommend ignoring the large hotel, which has an uncountable number of pairs of high heels kicking around but not much in the way of a receptionist, and head down to Nha nghi Hoang Anh just round the corner. It’s in the golden square of guest house – dinner – breakfast – petrol station, all just a stone’s throw from each other. Really nice clean and comfy rooms out the back, good food next door for dinner; petrol station opposite and banh my pate or bun dau mam tom for breakfast next to that.
The road onwards (along the “black route”) to Pac Ma is about 55km. The road surface itself is not bad but the area is prone to serious landslides; it’s a pretty safe bet that this road is unpassable for much of the rainy season. Even in late October we drove through the remnants of at least 10 significant slides. You can fill up with gas (if needed) at Pac Ma and the road onwards is signposted (at Pac Ma Bridge) 82km to Muong Nhe (along Highway 4H).
There are border patrol buildings along this road and if spotted you will be turned back without question. I think the only reason we got through was that we passed through in driving rain when only a fool would have voluntarily been outside. Once the road meets the A Pa Chai – Muong Nhe road you will have travelled about 60km from Pac Ma. Head west for the border or east for Muong Nhe.
For myself the border authorities stopped us 3km short of A Pa Chai. In driving rain at 1800m altitude and with a spluttering bike their instruction to ‘go back the way you came’ sounded quite welcome. As stated above the authorities were friendly and cordial, but clear and to the point. Without a permit you cannot proceed any closer to the border and shouldn’t even have got that close anyway. It’s almost 40km from here back to Muong Nhe, a town larger than Muong Te with several options for places to stay or eat. Whilst you will be allowed to stay here expect that the local police will visit you at some stage to inform you that you may not advance any further into the frontier zone in the direction of A Pa Chai.
From Muong Nhe the road surface is smooth and fast to Cho Cha Cang. It likely continues in similar fashion down to Muong Cha if you take the southern route but if you head to Muong Lay the road gets narrower and a little slower, although quite ok. Expect about 4 hours from Muong Nhe over to Muong Lay.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for taking the time to share your experience of this route.
I agree: I think if you get stopped at all then, without the necessary permits, you’ll certainly be turned around. My experience with the authorities in the region was also cordial and polite but firm.
I didn’t have any problem until north of Muong Te and north or Muong Nhe. Staying in Muong Te was fine and there were lots of decent enough guest houses for a night. But in Muong Nhe, as you say, you’re much more likely to get a visit from local officials if you stay over night there.
The road from Cho Cha Cang down to Muong Cha actually deteriorates because it’s undergoing renovations, but I imagine that’ll be finished soon.
I mention the Google Maps issue above, but I didn’t find it too difficult to improvise around this, but perhaps that’s because in Vietnam you get used to roads being diverted due to flooded river valleys and landslides etc. By cross-referencing the map above with the information in this guide and the comments here and some local advice you can avoid getting lost.
Thanks again,
Tom
What a great website! Such an invaluable resource. Very well written, too. Thank you sir!
Supposing…you were going to cross over from Laos to Dien Bien Phu in about February 2019, or thereabouts. Suppose you had two or three weeks, or maybe even more. Suppose you wanted to rent a motorcycle and experience these magical areas for yourself for the first time. Suppose you had years of experience traveling in Southeast Asia (but for some stupid reason or other had not spent nearly enough time in Vietnam). Suppose as well you had a great deal of motorcycle riding experience in Asia, mainly Thailand, Laos, and Myanmar.
What would you do? Where would you go? What would you suggest to such a person, who just happens to be me? Maybe bus it to Sapa or Ha Giang or somewhere like that first, use it as a base?
Hi Gerd,
Yes, I would get up to Sapa or Ha Giang first – you can rent a bike in both places, but Ha Giang has better rental companies (check out QT Motorbikes). Alternatively, you could rent a bike from one of the reliable rental companies that I mention here and get them to ship your bike from Hanoi to Sapa (most probably Lao Cai train station).
Either Sapa or Ha Giang is a good base from which to explore most of the northern routes suggested on my site – take a look at my Northern Routes Archive and you’ll begin to see how you could stitch a few of the routes together.
I hope this helps,
Tom